Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

Professor Dr. Natasha A. Kelly, you are engaged with the topic of Black feminism, particularly in relation to African and Afro-German communities. You’re also widely recognized as an activist dedicated to these causes. Perhaps, for those who may not be familiar, Professor Doctor Natasha A. Kelly is a distinguished Sociologist, artist, and curator. She holds a professorship in Cultural Studies at the Berlin University of the Arts and is known for her work at the intersection of arts and academia, where she strives to institutionalize Black German knowledge through the arts. 

Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

Yes, I am a Sociologist. I focus on Black German past, present and future, Black Feminism and Afrofuturism, but through a sociological lens, not a historical one. Unlike  historians who work with archives, I examine discourses — political, cultural, media-related debates, for example. I think that’s the difference between these disciplines. A historian would look more into archival material, but I don’t necessarily do that. I would describe myself as a sociologist, but I’m also an artist, activist, and curator. I currently hold a professorship in Cultural Studies at the Berlin University of The Arts, where I work to institutionalize Black German knowledge through the arts. I’m literally working at the intersection of arts and academia. 

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

That sounds very interesting. This year, our calendar focuses on African or Afro-German people, highlighting their lives and experiences in Germany. We’re particularly curious about the concept of Afro-German identity. How would you define it? Who is an Afro-German?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

I would say an Afro-German is someone who has lived in Germany for a longer period of time, or was socialized in Germany, or was born here and is of African descent. I’d differentiate between somebody who is brought up or socialized here, who I’d consider Afro-German, and Africans who migrated to Germany but weren’t socialized here. However, they’re still all part of one community, the African Diaspora.

Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

And what about Afro-feminism? You’re working on this topic, and feminism is a prominent part of current discussions. However, there’s been criticism that Western feminism isn’t inclusive or representative of the realities of Black or African women. How would you distinguish between Black-feminism and mainstream feminism?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

Well, many think that there’s no difference between feminisms, but there are.   Let me put it this way. There is not just one strand of Black feminism, which I see as a part of the African diaspora. It isn’t monolithic. Instead, within this field, there are different forms of Black feminism. There’s intersectional feminism, which is the feminism that I align with, and there’s womanism, which is a different form of Black feminism, coined a bit later by Alice Walker. Womanism focuses more on the family, including fathers and men. It caters for community structures whereas intersectional feminism focuses on deconstructing power structures. It primarily looks at women, especially Black women, but includes all other women alongside them.

African feminism, in contrast, would be feminism that would be located on the continent, and even there, you have different forms of feminism depending on the region — North, South, East, West, Central Africa. Not all women are the same, and different regions have different power structures. For example, in West Africa’s Ashanti region in Ghana, there are matriarchal lines where the queen holds more power than the king. But in different regions, you also have different matriarchal lines and with this, you also have different forms of feminism. 

So, talking about Black feminism or of African feminism, these are not homogenous categories. And I think that this is really important to understand. So what applies, for example, here in the West or in the Global North doesn’t necessarily apply in the Global South, which is why I would make a difference between the African diaspora and Africa. They both belong together in the PanAfrican sense of the word, connected but different, as we say, “same, same, but different.”  

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

 So  there isn’t really something called Afro-feminism?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

I’ve never heard of the term “Afro-feminism” before. If you’re referring to Black feminism, then yes, that’s a known concept, but “Afro-feminism” isn’t something I’m familiar with.

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen:

 So it’s probably just Black feminism? 

 Prof. Dr. Natasha Kelly:

Yes, Black feminism. I don’t know if “Afro-feminism” is being used synonymously with Black feminism, but it’s not a term I’ve encountered. 

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

Our next question is about the German development policy, particularly the Feminist policy of the Swan Ashworth of the Ministry of Development and Cooperation. This policy is supposed to center on women and has been incorporated into various development projects. What are your thoughts on it?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

I think that there’s a huge difference between Black feminism and white mainstream German feminism. Let me put it that way. I think that the biggest difference is that white women strive to gain the position of the white man focusing on individual achievements, particularly for each individual woman. Why? Because white feminism mainly only privileges white women of the upper class. Whereas Black feminism focuses on structures. That is, Black feminism wants to change the structures to deconstruct the patriarchy so that all women can benefit. That is the huge difference! 

When we talk about feminist foreign policy, like the one promoted by Annalena Baerbock in Germany, I think she definitely needs to learn a lot from Black women before she even dares stepping outside of Germany with this feminist approach, to cut a long story short. 

Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

Yeah, it’s quite interesting. I’m working in Roman cooperation, particularly on decolonization, and I’ve always been very critical of the whole hype around feminist policies because they often seem more like a Western imposition rather than something that is decolonial. Anyways, it’s not. 

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

Exactly, and I think Germany, in particular, is literally lacking when it comes to dealing with other cultures, even its own. I don’t think Germany should be the leading force in international feminism– definitely not. 

Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

So, considering academia, how can decolonization be implemented to promote Black feminist perspectives? I was just googling, and I noticed the term “Afro-feminism” is used, but I’m not sure if it’s the same as Black feminism or if it’s specifically referring to African women on the continent. But back to the question — how can Black feminist perspectives be advanced in academia?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

I think generally, we need to include not just a Black feminist approach to academia, but an Afrocentric perspective in academia that can stand alongside a Eurocentric one. There are intersections, there are entanglements. But I think viewing the world from an Afrocentric perspective offers a different understanding of the world. And I think Black feminism can help to do that, but on a structural level. What we really need is Black Studies. Without Black Studies, people will be running away with our tools. For example, intersectionality, which is at the center of Black feminism and they are trying to apply it in a Eurocentric context. But it is my belief that intersectionality cannot be separated from Black feminism and thus cannot be separated from an Afrocentric worldview. If we introduce Black Studies into the white German knowledge systems in this way, it will be a win for us all. 

Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

It’s quite surprising that we don’t have Black Studies in Germany considering it’s well-established in the US and the UK.  

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

Exactly, I have been advocating for it for years now. 

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

There’s also a new study field called Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity. Do you think it could focus on Black Studies?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

I’m not sure if that’s a field of study in Germany. I don’t think so. I think the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion offices are usually attached to the president’s office, and they focus on ensuring diversity among students and faculty. But they don’t necessarily look at the content or teaching. It’s not a discipline in itself, you know, and I think that’s the difference. 

Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

Actually, I was referring to the new discipline where people can study to become Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity consultants. 

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. In Germany?

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen

Yeah, in Germany. 

 Prof. Dr. Natasha Kelly:

Oh, interesting. I didn’t know that.  

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

It’s very recent. I think the last two years, the topic has become very prominent, very present. This is a new field. Earlier, you mentioned having an Afrocentric perspective in parallel to a Eurocentric one. But within the Afro community, there are different perspectives. So, what would an Afrocentric perspective look like?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

The Afrocentric idea is, in comparison to the Eurocentric idea or worldview, what the word says: It centers Africa and the African Diaspora. And centering Africa, which is where humanity began, is, in my view, the only correct thing to do, because that’s where the world started, and not in Europe. Centering Africa means understanding the continent as the core source of knowledge. 

And understanding myself to be a descendant of Africa, although I was not born in Africa, I think, is what changes my perspective on a lot of things. For example, if you look at time in a Eurocentric context, time is linear. Something starts at A and ends at B, or starts at A, runs over B and ends at C. But in Afrocentric philosophy, time is circular, in the sense of Sankofa, a philosophy of the Ashanti people. For example, there is no beginning or end to anything. One thing comes from the other. The meaning of Sankofa is that you have to go back and fetch it. You have to go back into the past, bring the past into the present to be able to create the future.  

This is just a basic idea of how you would even look at the world and how you would look at knowledge, how you would teach and how you would produce knowledge. Whereas in Europe, for example, especially in Germany, because they lost their colonies after the First World War, they believe they don’t have to deal with colonization any more. But from an Afrocentric perspective, which for me is also a Post-colonial perspective, it actually tells us that we’re still in an ongoing colonial system, although they don’t govern colonies any more. So this is a different way of actually looking at the same thing. And that’s why I think that an Afrocentric perspective enriches the entire world, not only Black people. 

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

What do you think Germany needs to do to embrace this perspective, particularly in academia? What makes it so difficult, and what needs to change?

Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

Well, like everywhere else, we need resources, money. We need finances, and facilities. You can’t stop the movement, especially with the demographic change. I belong to a generation of Black Germans who were socialized in Germany and who went through the education system from primary school right up to professorship. But I am one of the first to do this. I’m not including professors who migrated to Germany from foreign countries; I’m talking about the inside perspective of Black Germans who grew up here. I’m literally the first generation, but after me, there are more generations to come, so you can’t stop this movement. I believe it’s only a matter of time until we have Black Studies. 

If they don’t see it now, because they only have a handful of Black professors, they’ll see it when there are 20 or more Black professors. It will happen– and I’ll be sitting in my rocking chair as old as Methusalem, and I’ll be watching it unfold, saying, “yes, we made it.”

Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

Maybe it will happen sooner than you think, and you’ll still be standing on your feet to see it.

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

Well, who knows? 

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

Before we close, you’ve probably heard about the UN Decade for People of African Descent, which is ending this year. How do you think it has impacted the lives and histories of Black people? How would you evaluate it?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A.  Kelly:

It’s twofold. On one hand, it was a huge chance for communities to learn more about themselves, come closer to each other, both on the continent and within the diaspora. A lot of content has been produced. But on a political level, I think that if you don’t put money where your mouth is, then it’s just an alibi event. And in the past decade, not much has been invested into new institutions, for example. It leads to individual, single projects with minimum finances and no sustainability. And if you compare this to the Women’s Decade 20 years back, which led to structural change because of the investments that were made, the UN Decade for People of African Descent didn’t receive the same level of commitment. That’s my critique. 

Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen:

Fair point. Thank you. Now, for the last question — our calendar features important dates. Is there a specific date that holds significance for you and that  you’d like to be featured?

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

Yes, there is.. 

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen: 

So which one is that? 

 Prof. Dr. Natasha A. Kelly:

It’s the 9th of November . 

  For two reasons, one personal and one structural. November 9th is my birthday, and it is also the day the Berlin Wall fell, which happened on my 16th birthday, in 1989. Every year, I’m reminded that the Wall fell because every year for  nearly 35 years, there have been  celebration ceremonies  on this occasion. . This also reminds me of how German I’ve become over the years. I remember on my 16th birthday when the Wall actually fell, I was very skeptical about what would happen. I wasn’t celebrating like the majority of the German population. And a few years later, it showed why, because there were racist attacks in East and West Germany, and the situation for Black Germans didn’t get better. 

 But more than 30 years later, I have become very German. I am now actually a German citizen with a German passport, which I wasn’t all the time. And I’m reminded of that every year on my birthday, which is literally that day, on November 9th. So, if you don’t have anyone else for that date, I would like to be featured on November 9th for that reason.

 Audrey Vanessa Noukeu Petnguen Maybe it’s symbolic that you’re also working to break down barriers between white and BPoC people. Perhaps that’s why you were born on that day. Thank you so much for your time.