Etheldreda D., Nanfa: We’re really glad that you accepted our invitation. Very briefly, Mo, you may want to correct me if I’m wrong but you are a German filmmaker, an author, and a former television host who has been recognized for your courageous documentaries confronting issues of identity and racism. A particularly notable documentary of yours is „Mo und Die Arier“ translated as ‘Mo and The Ariers’. 

Prof. Mo Asumang: Hold on a second. Perhaps for clarity, as you want to make the competencies more visible–I’m also a professor at the Film University in Munich. Oh, great. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: Oh, great! I missed that title. I’ll correct that at the end of this interview and add it to your competencies. But it’s not just about your competencies; you bring a wealth of intellectual baggage. In your work, you’ve confronted neo-Nazis and white supremacists in your documentaries. I’d like to ask you about this bold approach—what drove you to seek out these intense face-to-face dialogues? And how do you think these raw interactions have changed the way audiences perceive racism? But before we dive into that, would you like to add anything to my brief introduction about who Mo Asumang is, especially for the audience who will be reading or listening?

Prof. Mo Asumang: That’s absolutely fine. I’m a Tv host—I still host events—but yes, I do film, and I’m a Professor as well. What you said is fine. So coming to your first question, to be honest, in the beginning, there was a lot of fear. So I did not start from the idea of talking to these people; it was a personal need. I dove into that fear so much that I didn’t feel myself anymore. So, in order to feel myself and to strengthen my identity, I thought it’s very important to talk to the people that made my life so hard. Yeah, that’s why I started—it was not because I wanted to, but because I wasn’t able to live anymore. 

I went to my house, opened the door and looked behind every door or under the bed, even in my car, I opened the trunk to look, is there a neo-Nazi? I wasn’t able to sit beside a window because the neo-Nazi murder threats—they gave it through a song that said “This bullet is for you, Mo Asumang.” That’s what they were singing, and I always thought about the bullet which easily could go through a window. So, all places beside the window, became taboo. And that’s not a life. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: I can imagine! But tell me more—what was the greatest resistance you faced while starting your journey? You mentioned you were filled with fear at the start; you confronted the neo-Nazis and white supremacists in your documentary. Did you face any type of resistance from the system?

Prof. Mo Asumang: Well, there were people who told me it’s not a good idea to talk to neo-Nazis because we as a society should not talk to them. I don’t know why people always tell these things, but I think in order to solve problems, we have to talk to each other. But the biggest challenge was to motivate myself because if you’re afraid or if you have a certain picture in your head about these people—which is actually not so nice, not a really nice picture—then you have to get going. And that’s not so easy, especially when you don’t have society, friends or family supporting you because it’s very dangerous. So, I had to motivate myself somehow. I remember at my first neo-Nazi rally, when I thought maybe I could find a person to talk to, my body froze, I was trembling, my hands were wet and my neck was stiff. 

Prof. Mo Asumang: And every step towards these people was more heavy. Every step was more heavy. And the challenge was, yeah, to still move on.

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: I must say, Mo, that was brave!. 

Prof. Mo Asumang: That was the biggest challenge. I don’t know if I started it that day exactly, but I started finding inner pictures that could help motivate myself; let me just find the word that I want to tell you…So, the first picture I had to motivate myself to go on was, I am a steamroller. And with this picture, I imagined that they couldn’t break me, they couldn’t hurt me. This was a very important picture for me to still walk towards these people. But on the other side, it also has another very interesting vision—the steamroller makes the street. The street is rough before the steamroller comes. So, if I am the steamroller, I make the road smooth so that others can walk on it afterward. This was a picture I imagined. 

But at first, I wasn’t really able to see the people; all I saw was rage and fear. When I approached these people, I only saw… I don’t know what’s the word for this fleche, those people on these neo-Nazi rallies didn’t seem like single people; they looked like one mass, like a flat area. I noticed this even when I got verbally attacked—people saying, “Go back to Africa,” or sentences like that I heard. I saw many people, not just one person, and I didn’t look them in the eyes. I had to train myself to really focus on looking people in the eyes and allow myself to do that. So, there were a lot of challenges before going there, even before having the first dialogue.

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: I’m really glad you pushed through those challenges and came out stronger. But talking about the image of the steamroller and how you motivated yourself, could this also give us more insight into your personal journey of identity exploration? In a Eurocentric society, identity—especially racial identity—can be very complex. Our calendar  focuses on German-Afro descendants in Germany, and today, we use terms like Afro-German, African diaspora, and Black people. Do these labels resonate with you? Or do you prefer to identify differently?

Prof. Mo Asumang: Well, I didn’t identify the same way every year—It was always something else. When I was small, I was even afraid of Black people. I went to the other side of the street; I did not want to be confronted with Black people because I thought it’s a problem having dark skin. So I thought, okay, then that’s more problem for me. That’s how it all started. But when I went to Ghana for the first time and met my father, and met the people in Ghana, and saw how the people really are—I was raised with my white mom and my white grandmother, and there were not so many Black people around me. So I did not have a strong feeling—I did not actually know people with a different colour…

So, yes, I went to the other side of the street, to be honest—but when I was in Ghana, and met the people, and the culture, I felt all of a sudden, I felt so much at home. I don’t know how to look in people’s eyes, but I was looking and all of a sudden, smiling because they just gave me a very good feeling and I could see myself in them. This was not possible in Germany. In Germany, I didn’t see myself in my classmates, roommates, my teachers, or anyone on the street. But in Ghana, all of a sudden, I did, and that was really so nice. From then on, I had a different approach. I think that most racists simply don’t know the people they’re prejudiced against. The same goes for anti-Semitism—people who are anti-Semitic often haven’t even met a Jewish person. I mean, it’s so crazy.  

And what else did I feel? There was a phase where I did not want to be anything. Oh, no. At first, I just wanted to be with white people, then only with Black people, then a phase where I said, no, I’m international—just nothing, I don’t need home. I don’t need all this. So, I went through these things, but when I was in the phase of needing no home. Then I realized that “Heimat”—a German word that’s hard to translate, maybe “homeland”—is important, and I deserve to have it. Because that was also hard for me. Then, I thought, I don’t deserve these positive values of German society, the German state. Even when I was a taxi driver, somebody hit my head on a taxi and somebody was standing in front of me with a nine millimeter. I did not say anything. I didn’t go to the police because I thought, I’m not valuabe. Is that the right word? 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: Yes.  

Prof. Mo Asumang: So…It’s really like a very long journey. It’s not like just go there and talk to neo-Nazis. No. There’s a life before that, a long life, a very intense life with a lot of different phases. Yes. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: Listening to you, I’m struck by how deep and complex your journey has been. What advice would you give to a young girl struggling with her identity, especially in a society that might not fully accept her?

Prof. Mo Asumang: Well, for me, it was really helpful to read a lot about German history because when you get to hear a sentence like, “go back home” or “go back to Africa”, then, of course, it’s interesting to know how did this country develop and how did the whole thing start. I really liked everything that had to do with archaeology; I was reading a lot about this and watching films about vikings when I was small, and really trying to find identity. But reading a lot, building up knowledge helps you also—It’s like a weapon because if somebody comes to you and gives names like, I don’t want to now… I don’t want to say these names but you, you know, the ‘n-word’ or stuff like that. 

Then you can talk with this person about their own history, because this history does not start with Goethe and Schiller. It started well before that. And it’s interesting to have this point of view, perhaps, I don’t know, 100, 200 years ago, Germany wasn’t always what it is today. Germany…was like Furstenthumer.  Principalities.

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: Oh, yes, principalities here. 

Prof. Mo Asumang: Yes, there were principalities and tribes, you know, and only, 1700, maybe, you have to google that… 1740 or 1840, that Germany started. So, it’s not really a very old country. These principalities and tribes, for me, it was something totally interesting because tribes, that’s a word that normally we don’t use in Germany, but we use it for underdeveloped countries in Africa, for example, and that’s where we come from. We come from these tribes, like Germanen or Proktora, Zemnun or Katan —well before these tribes, nobody has been living here. There was only forest, you know? 

This is interesting because if you look from this perspective, you automatically know, there was a time when people started to migrate towards this country which didn’t have a name at that time. There were people who had—perhaps, children and a backpack, and walked into this, now called Germany, who built little huts and later houses. But I mean, a German child does not have a same approach to this perspective; they think we are that strong all the time, and that’s it. There has never been migration—that’s not what they see, and that’s also not what we are talking about. We are not talking about Germany as a country that started by migration. For the US, it’s normal, but not for Germany. 

We just start from—we are the best —we build the best cars—we have the best houses—and democracy, but that’s not where we come from. I think it’s all important to see where we come from, and it’s so interesting, the Nazis, abused these old Germanic tribes until a certain point because they found out, in the end, it’s just a tribe—people hunting in the forest, pictures like that. But when you enter the ‘Bibliothic’, you can see, like the ancient Roman people or the ancient Greek, they have so much more than the ancient Germans. So from that point, they started to abuse this term Aryan because it was connected to the ancient Persians, with a connection between the languages. So, they called themselves Aryans, which is also, not true. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: I completely agree. Knowing our roots is crucial. But reflecting on your grandmother’s transformation from an SS secretary to raising you, how do you think we can foster societal forgiveness, given Germany’s complex history and the ongoing challenges we face?

Prof. Mo Asumang: Personally, forgiveness is one of the strongest terms. It’s what gives me strength and makes me stay in my middle. I believe that forgiveness is something we really have to practice more. Of course, there are many other important things we have to talk about—teaching, these things in schools, having open conversations—but I think the most important thing is to focus on forgiveness and humanity. That’s how we can truly make a big step forward. Yes, we need to address colonialism and teach it in schools; otherwise, the kids won’t understand a lot of things. And that’s true! But we shouldn’t get stuck in just talking about it. My grandmother, for instance, worked for the Nazi SS. 

Of course, it was a shock for me when I heard about this, especially because she raised me. She wasn’t racist towards me, but it was still a shock. And I thought, did she actually love me or why did she hide these things from me. I was very out of balance,  unsure of what kind of person my grandmother really was. To be honest, if I would have known this when I was younger, in my twenties, I probably would have banned her out of my life. I would have  just moved on and never talk to her again, never offered her her forgiveness. But why? In the end, she raised me, fed me, and I lived with her. 

We talked, went on holidays together, and so on. She did make a transformation. But we really need to recognize that people are able to make a transformation. At the moment, we don’t have this picture; we only have the narrative of it’s their fault, they’re bad, or whatever. We don’t see these people in the process of transformation. I think it’s important to highlight the story of someone who has gone through a transformation. You know what I mean? 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: Of course I do, I understand. But because we’re talking about balance here—if you had known about your grandmother’s past earlier, in your own words, you said you would have cut her out of your life.

Prof. Mo Asumang: Definitely, definitely. But in the moment I had this thought, I cried because I said to myself, ‘How ugly can I be?’ It’s really ugly if you don’t give another person a chance to change to change. So I realized it’s also on me to help with this transformation. I can’t just point fingers and say, ‘You have to transform yourself’ or ‘You have to change.’ Well, I think we have to help these people through their transformation, and if we don’t help, it simply won’t happen. I’m quite sure about that. But that’s not at all an idea of Germany towards these topics—not at all. We still point fingers, and that’s it. Maybe we get a little bit of education in schools about this time, but forgiveness? This, no, it’s not there—and I’m sad about this. I’m really sad. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: That’s a powerful perspective. Balancing our experiences with those of others, even those who have wronged us, can shape our narratives in meaningful ways. Your documentaries are powerful educational tools in Germany. How do you measure the impact of your work in helping the audience understand the multifaceted realities of identity and racism?

Prof. Mo Asumang: Well, I think the most important thing is for people to see a Black person engaging in dialogue with a racist. That’s not a picture that exists in their minds—it’s just not there. It’s just not there. So, the most important thing is to create that picture, and I’ve done that through my films. People can see how I talk to these people; I don’t get into rage or into hate. I don’t jump into the hate circle. That is something very unusual, and I think we’re just not aware of it. We all need to go on a hero’s journey from—finding the world; moving from lower instincts to dialogue. That’s a true hero’s journey, and it doesn’t happen with the snap of a finger, you know. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: But in this case, you’re actually talking about a hero’s journey. So, how will you—first of all, do you receive any feedback on the documentaries and narratives you’ve put out there?

Prof. Mo Asumang: Yes, many. Many for years and years, I’ve received a lot of feedback. I’ve been talking about this in schools, and I also visit schools to speak with the kids. People are often a little shocked—they ask, ‘How can you do this? How can you be so calm? Why aren’t you screaming at these people? What’s wrong with you?’ And I tell them that it’s been a long journey and I’ve learned a lot by watching these people. I watch the moment when they are in hate. I watched them—how their faces look like, how do they move, and what happens when I don’t mirror their hate but instead ask questions. They often get confused because the typical reaction they expect is for the person they’re attacking to lose their balance. 

As a racist, you say the ‘n-word’, and the person gets off balance. But I’ve studied this mechanism so many times that I am aware that their goal is to bring me off balance. So instead, I just watch how they try to do it.  want to bring me out of my balance, that this is one of the aims. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: You have successfully been able to control your emotions.

Prof. Mo Asumang: I don’t even have to control it, actually. I’m just curious—how will he or she try to throw me off balance? So, I just watch them. And as I watch, I get curious about the person, because no one is born a racist. Something must have happened in between. It could be different things—a bad life, losing a job, a breakup maybe. All these things could lead someone to hate and fail to reflect on life. So it’s interesting to me to know why a person says this instead of? That’s what is of interest to me. 

When I’m in this state of curiosity, I really dive into it. There’s no fear, no anxiety—just pure curiosity. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: I completely agree with you. Our curiosity can indeed take us further in understanding the complexities around us. It helps us stay grounded and provides the balance we actually need. You’ve offered such valuable insight.

Prof. Mo Asumang: But what’s really important for people to understand is that I’m not just able to do this on the street, at my job, or in everyday situations—I can live this curiosity because I’ve trained it so much. Even in the middle of the night, whether I’m talking to the Ku Klux Klan or the most high-ranking racists in the U.S., I rely on this ability. But you have to train these skills; they don’t just happen with the snap of a finger. It requires intentional effort and practice. This consciousness has to be present—it doesn’t come from zero. It takes real work and awareness. That’s why I don’t know if you’re aware, but I have a nonprofit organization… organization. 

Yes, we have a format called ‘Ambassadors in Dialogue.’ We train people in resilience and dialogue, helping them engage with anti-democrats. That is really very important at this time because there are so many people who are anti-democrats, anti-Semitic, misogynistic, or against queerness. We focus on training the ability to have meaningful dialogue. We also guide people through the phases of fear and other challenges they might face in these conversations.

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: In Mandela’s words, he did say, ‘Education is one of the most powerful weapons which you can use to change the world.’ And I’m glad that your documentaries have become a very powerful educational tool today.

Prof. Mo Asumang: Yes, but dialogue is also education. It’s a very specific, yet incredibly powerful, form of education. But I don’t think we fully realize just how important dialogue is. Just imagine if we were able to live through dialogue—if there’s a problem, there would be no war because war is like the strongest non dialogue field. So, I believe dialogue is the most important tool for getting out of all of problems.

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: I’ll actually be closing with that as a key takeaway—something I’m personally taking from this interview. You’ve provided such invaluable insights today, Mo. I would have loved to continue for another hour or two because your conversations are so profoundly deep. I believe that, like myself, the audience will gain so much from hearing and reading your words. It’s reassuring to know that there is still hope out there, and even when the odds seem overwhelming, there are people like you who are fighting for us. Yes, Mo, you are fighting for us.

Prof. Mo Asumang: I’m fighting, it’s true. But I don’t see it as a fight—it’s not a fight. It’s more of an inner development. I don’t know…

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: It could be a dialogue as well. 

Prof. Mo Asumang: Yes, but I also think our allies need to ‘fight’ for us—if I can use that term. It’s so important to help create spaces where we can train and even fail once in a while. Right now, we are talking about different wordings, and people often don’t know which words are appropriate. So it’s crucial to have these spaces where we can fail, where we can talk about our failures, and where we can talk about emotions—like how I feel when someone says the ‘n-word.’ But we have to create these spaces. And this is something that needs to come from politics. They need to provide us with these spaces, which requires time, some funding, and a lot of support. It’s not just about us fighting alone. We have our allies and we are fighting together. 

Etheldreda D., Nanfa: As we close, you’ve shared invaluable insights today, Mo. Your work is truly inspiring, and I’m sure our audience will benefit greatly from it.

Prof. Mo Asumang:

All right, it was really a lovely talk with you—a very nice interview. Thank you.