Interview by: Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda

Interview with: Elizabeth Ngari

Themes: Refugee women group, Integration challenges, Activism 

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: My name is Sylvie Ngo Bigda from Cameroon, and today I’ll be interviewing  Elizabeth Ngari for our Black Academy project, which aims to highlight the significant contributions made by Black people in Germany for our 2025 calendar issue. Mrs. Ngari, I believe that my colleagues reached out to you to discuss your organization, Women in Exile. Women in Exile suggests a depth beyond its name; could you please introduce yourself and share insights into the influential women behind the organization and how they drive your initiatives?

Elizabeth Ngari: Yes, my name is Elizabeth Ngari, and I’m one of the founders of Women in Exile. Women in Exile is a refugee women’s group based in Brandenburg since 2002. We founded this group in response to the discrimination, racism, and living conditions in the camps. And for us, it became important to raise our voices and share our grievances. So, we decided to come together, to talk, empower ourselves, learn about the laws, and demand dignity in this society, just like any other asylum seekers. 

For many of us, the language barrier and the legal system made it very difficult to find our way, especially when you are an asylum seeker; unless you need to try yourself or through other communities to find your way around. This being one of the reasons we founded Women in Exile, and secondly, it’s even harder for women because we face double discrimination — not only as asylum seekers, as a left  group, but also as women. The life in the camps, especially for women and children, is not bearable.   That’s why we launched a campaign called “No Lager for Women and Children,” to protest against  the unsuitable living conditions in these accommodations, which were causing so many problems.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: You refer to refugee accommodations as “camps” and have reported instances of sexual harassment within these facilities. Additionally, you are involved in the “Justice for Rita – stop Femicide” campaign. Could you share more about the experiences of refugee women and discuss what political changes you believe are essential for women in exile?

Elizabeth Ngari: Actually, we call them “Lager”, which translates to ‘storage.’ It’s a deliberate choice because the experience feels like being stored somewhere. You are being accommodated in a place, or you are forced to live in a place without any choice, in camps, often sharing rooms with people you don’t have any connection with, who might not even speak the same language or have similar personalities. 

This is why we consider ourselves stored in this “Lager” without anybody asking us if we like that or not. I know sometimes people have this controversy of saying, it’s like a veggie. It’s not! You are actually being put in a place where you live without dignity. In these camps mostly, like I say, you share a room alongside 6 others, there’s no privacy, and we share facilities like kitchens and bathrooms, which sometimes or most of the time leads to conflicts between the people. 

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: And you’ve also mentioned issues like sexual harassment. 

Elizabeth Ngari: Yes, there’s a lot of sexual harassment. We have had some women even report cases of rape, but as with many feminist issues, it’s often brushed aside. I remember a case five years ago where a woman was murdered, and we are still waiting for justice. Nothing has moved on with the investigations. So this is why we call them “ragas.” If we had our way, we would have left so as to integrate ourselves and care for ourselves.

All these combined problems made us organize ourselves to demand better living conditions, to live in dignity and integrate into the society. 

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: You mentioned  cases of sexual harassment happening in the camps were reported to the police. Do you think the authorities take these issues less seriously because, first of all, you’re women, or perhaps because you’re Black women? As Black women, we are often perceived as strong, sometimes even less human, as if these are things we should simply endure. Do you believe there’s a connection between this and racism?

Elizabeth Ngari: It’s both. Racism is a big part of it. If it’s someone from the society, let’s say a German white woman were in the same situation, things would be different. For us, like you mentioned earlier, sometimes Black women are often seen as sexual objects, and our complaints are not often taken seriously. In one case, a woman went to the police to report an assault, and the officer asked her to demonstrate how the man had assaulted her. It was retraumatizing. How can you start asking the woman to go through the same trauma again? Here are some instances which make us really mad because you can’t trust, and these are the issues that push us to organize and raise our voices because otherwise, no one listens. Nobody cares about our dignity. We feel like objects, and anything can happen to you. Nobody cares what happens to us. 

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: Coming back to the campaign for justice for Rita. Can you tell us more about it? What political dynamics do you believe are essentially for Women in Exile? 

 Elizabeth Ngari: Yes, the campaign for Rita. Rita was a young woman who had lived in a camp for more than five years. She had two kids and disappeared on April 7, 2019. I remember the date because we had a demonstration on the previous day. Her body was found nearly three months later, just 300 metres from the camp — a camp located in the middle of nowhere.

 2 km from where she lived is the small town —  actually a village. Her case was a horrific one. She was found in a state that made identification difficult. Nonetheless, at the time, there was no reported missing person case which allowed me to identify her but all the same, findings lasted three months. Although her body was 300 meters from the camp, the camp is always secured. It is a military zone, with a fence, and like I said, to go out of the camp, if you like, you can break through the fence. Also, there are landmines with warnings about the camp prohibiting movement beyond the fence. 

It’s very strange that Rita just disappeared in winter without a jacket, with nothing. It’s a very complex case. I can understand the issue, but the problem is that there was a lack of urgency in the investigation, and it took pressure from activists to even start looking for her. A woman doesn’t just disappear, leaving behind two children, and without money. So, we then got together and started this campaign of finding out the truth about what had happened. Up to date, the prosecutor handling the case —  is a very racist prosecutor, because we have been pushing. 

At one point, he was interviewed by a journalist and he made racist remarks, suggesting that the place where the remains were found looked like some kind of “African ritual.” We have been pushing for the case to be reassigned, but nothing has moved forward. But they keep saying, “he’s still investigating.” The last time he commented, he mentioned he might close the case. Besides, even if the case is closed, we’ll go further because the prosecutor cannot make all these comments and then simply close the case.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: I can see how important it is to keep pushing for justice. Have you contacted other organizations for support? 

 Elizabeth Ngari: Not yet. We don’t have the necessary capacities right now. Our goal is to reach out to others who have more judicial expertise. There’s a lawyer supporting us, but she’s also waiting on the prosecutor’s updates. Since the case isn’t closed, or they haven’t set a specific date for closure, there’s not much more she can do at this stage. However, we’re thinking of engaging more people, especially within the Black community, and involving feminist groups that could join us in pushing this further. I believe  it needs more attention and support. We should launch a larger campaign to really make an impact. 

We’re not many, and our capacities are limited, but we’re back to the drawing board figuring out our next steps. How can we involve more people? How can we bring in experts, like those who handle criminal investigations? We need to get them involved. Yes, we need to engage more with the community and make this case more public, so that it gains the attention it deserves.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: Yes. And have you maybe also tried to contact people from Ypsilon, from ILJ? 

 Elizabeth Ngari: Not yet. Those are the tactics we want to use now. I hope they will work. I’m not entirely sure how their process functions, but we can try and see.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: I understand. Now, let’s shift to the refugee crisis. Recently, there has been intense debate about the differing treatment of refugees from Ukraine compared to Black refugees. How have you personally experienced this debate, and what is your stance on it? Does this issue play a role in your group of refugee women?

 Elizabeth Ngari: I think it’s an open secret. The white Ukrainian refugees received a lot of advantages. I always say, I don’t blame them, I blame the political structure. They were fleeing war like everyone else, but when they arrived here, it became very clear what kind of society we live in and just how racist it is. White people received special considerations, while others didn’t even exist. Many had to fight just to be admitted into the country, 

People had to fight to be recognized as refugees, even to be part of the group coming in. I know many were told to return to their countries. This situation revealed the nature of the society and the politics we have here. It wasn’t necessarily the refugees themselves, but the negotiations and decisions being made. There’s discrimination in the system. Now what’s going on? Refugees or asylum seekers are being threatened. For example, refugees now have to rely on the “Basalt Card,” which limits their cash access, but this is different for the Ukrainian refugees who receive more financial support. 

It’s all about discrimination and racism embedded in the system. It’s not just about individuals — it’s about white supremacy and institutional racism. Black refugees, in particular, faced numerous challenges, even getting on trains at the time was difficult for them. This isn’t just a German issue; it’s a wider European or capitalist problem. Yet, in Germany specifically, we saw society welcome Ukrainian refugees into their homes and support them through various structures, while others have been living in camps (“Lager”) for the last ten years without  any opportunities.

So, like I said, it’s the system — this institutional racism.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: With the complexities of integration into German society and given the limitations of broad categorizations like ‘migrant background’ in educational settings, how is Women In Exile working with educational institutions to ensure an inclusive society ?

 Elizabeth Ngari: First of all, we try to empower the women to step out of the system, starting by helping them leave the “Lager” (camps), and then the system itself. We have a strong network, and  we encourage them to begin by learning German, because without the language, it is hard to make progress. Many of them are not allowed to learn German, but we still encourage them. With today’s technology, it’s easier — they can use their phones to start learning the basics. 

We also act as a bridge, connecting these women to other organizations that can offer more specialized help. For example, we help them find German courses. But it’s not just about integration; there are so many other challenges they face, especially medical issues. Before they can even think about integrating or looking for jobs, they often have to deal with trauma or health problems. So, we assess their individual needs and refer them to organizations that can assist with those specific issues. Some of these women also face legal challenges. A lot of asylum cases are being rejected, so they’re caught up in appeals and other legal battles. There are many layers to their struggles.

At the end of the day, we try to address each woman’s individual problems and make it a political issue, because these are challenges they shouldn’t have to face. We raise these issues with the authorities, advocating for their right to live in dignity. We also bring attention to the discriminatory laws they’re facing. So, it’s about taking individual problems, highlighting their political nature, and pushing for systemic change.

 Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: And your approach — would you say it’s easy? Is it easy to access the institution, or do you need to develop additional strategies to make yourself more visible?

Elizabeth Ngari: Yes,  we mostly organize actions — demonstrations, press releases, and collaborations with other groups to create activities. We do reach them. We write memorandums and submit them, and they acknowledge these efforts. But the response we get is often minimal. They might say, “Yes, these are the laws,” or “We’ll look into that.” It’s not that they don’t know what’s happening — they do. They’re the ones making and enforcing these laws, so they are fully aware. But as we know, they don’t want too many refugees, especially from African countries. 

When it comes to education and  opportunities, we are often seen as backward. No one takes the time to explore our talents or understand our backgrounds. That’s why we have to fight our way, especially in this society.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: Do you think the challenges are greater in East Germany compared to the West? 

 Elizabeth Ngari: I think because we’ve also been able to move around and network with other refugees in other parts of Germany, we’ve seen that the issues are pretty much the same everywhere. The only difference, maybe, is that in the western part of Germany, there are more established organizations that are better connected. 

Also, people who have been there longer, from other communities or even the African communities, have a better understanding of how the system works. But in East Germany, it’s very limited. There are organizations like Caritas, Diakonie, and Flüchtlingsrat that try to assist, but it’s challenging because there aren’t as many of us in that part of the country. The state is also more spread out, and the refugees are often placed in small, remote areas, making it difficult to connect with society.

In the western part, refugees are more often housed in cities like Berlin. There’s a noticeable difference between refugees in Berlin and those in Brandenburg. In Berlin, they’re closer to places where they can access advice, free medical services, and other resources. But in Brandenburg, if you’re sick, you usually have to go to your GP, who then refers you to the nearest hospital. Many of the women we work with prefer to find doctors in Berlin because they feel they aren’t getting adequate care in Brandenburg. The language barrier is a big issue — they often don’t have anyone to translate for them, or it’s difficult to arrange a translator. You could be sick and have to wait a week for a translator, so they look for facilities in Berlin where they can get help faster.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: Thank you very much. Regarding input in the OTD-Calendar 2025 edition, could you kindly provide us with any notable dates, along with any experiences, quotes, or images you’d like to be featured in our calendar series for the wider audience to appreciate?

Elizabeth Ngari:  Maybe we could start with Rita — April 7th. I think it’s very important to recognize her, as a Black woman who was murdered, and to this day, no one knows what really happened or who was responsible. We’re still struggling for justice and answers.

Also, we founded our organization in June 2002, and June 20th is World Refugee Day, which I remember because that’s around the time we were established. So, perhaps June 20th could be included as well.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda:  Is there anything else you’d like to share? Maybe a message for those who may not be fully aware of what’s happening in our community or something that could help our community move forward, hopefully soon, or at least in the near future.

Because, in my opinion, the Black community is facing similar struggles everywhere. Perhaps you have some experiences or insights you’d like to share with others that could be helpful.

Elizabeth Ngari: Maybe I’ll just say that we need a stronger Black community. Without that, we won’t go very far. I understand that many of us face numerous challenges — both from where we came from and here in this country — but I believe we need to be strong and work together.

By doing so, we can make an impact and show that we are here, we are living in this country, and we are not going anywhere.

Sylvie Paulette Ngo Bigda: Yes, I think this is the message each of us needs to hear, no matter where we are or where we’re going. It’s sad that we often have to repeat ourselves to those who think they’ve already risen and can do whatever they want, forgetting that together we are stronger, and individually, we are weaker. So, for me, thank you very much for your time and patience. 

 Elizabeth Ngari: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.